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Post by cg on Jul 1, 2014 22:06:34 GMT
...is very possibly OP now, due to being guaranteed to trigger every turn (and therefore making easy EMs) and due to there being more ways to spam creatures (particularly in-element - cell and wolves). Don't want to nerf it into oblivion, but maybe it might need a one quanta cost boost or something? Alternately, quanta-to-cast cost drop with the addition of quanta-a-turn upkeep? Not really sure, but a really sizable portion of top decks seem to involve bond at the moment.
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chap
Junior Member
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Post by chap on Jul 2, 2014 1:24:55 GMT
Not OP, at least as I saw.
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Post by dawntodusk on Jul 2, 2014 5:54:11 GMT
if em salvages increase, then it might get OP. but as it stands, it doesnt help win any more matches than in normal etg so its balanced
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Post by Fippe94 on Jul 2, 2014 10:03:03 GMT
Check cg's Wolfbond and PatCell in the Decks forum. They are both the best decks (as far as I know, but feel free to prove me wrong) in their category (Goldgain/DGkiller) and they both containt Bond. It is stronger than in Elements due to Wolf and Cell, and also the fact that it is easier to get EMs due to that Permanents hsappens before Creatures (Does not affect win-ability, but does affect gold-gain, which is still something to take into account) If you can show there are other decks that are better or on-par with htose decks, then sure, Bond might not be OP, but right now it seems so.
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Post by cg on Jul 2, 2014 15:18:25 GMT
Yeah, to clarify, a lot of the problem is that it has much better synergies (cell, wolf) than it does in vanilla, and they're even in-element.
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Post by odinvanguard on Jul 3, 2014 0:59:42 GMT
Simply adding a 1 quanta per turn cost may be too limited here. It makes it more difficult to use in situations where it is not OP but is too small a price to be a deterent for cases where it is OP. For over 100 HP healing per turn, 5 life quanta per turn is an awefully good bargain, but for may 5 to 10 healing per turn, 5 life quanta per turn is too expensive. One way around this would be to have the amount absorbed each turn scale based on the number of creatures involved. E.g. "Heal self per creature owned. Absorbs  per six creatures owned" So you can get up to 5 hps per turn for free and then 7-11 hps per turn for 1 per turn, 12-17 HPs for 2 per turn, 18 - 23 for 3 per turn. ...scaling up for every six creatures is just an example, it could be set to some other value as balancing requires. I would guess it should fall somewhere between every 5 to every 8. |
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treebeard
New Member
spodosis is love. spodosis is life. One does not simply underestimate the spode
Posts: 11
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Post by treebeard on Jul 3, 2014 11:42:32 GMT
Suddenly all the hate on bond because it got a nice couple of synergies I don't understand it so wolves and cells increase rapidly but also without sop any kind of mass cc shuts them down immediately, I also don't recall any issues due to the old tried and tested ffq bond. Why so much hate on a card that is particularly strong with a couple of cards I don't see anyone shooting down cowtosis or cowtal and I can guess what everyone is going to say the reason being they are mandatory duos but that is irrelevent in my opinion they are still damn strong. So bond has mono synergies I think that is fair monolife needed a buff for a long time so it gets it and suddenly everyone wants to re-cripple it, just because suddenly it can em easily in certain situations. Simple solution make bond act after all creatures attack like it does in vanilla therefore it recalculates after creatures die during that turns attacks
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Post by serprex on Jul 3, 2014 12:41:10 GMT
To follow on treebeard's point: are Bond decks too impossible for the meta to solve? If it's only a matter of Champion/DG deck vulnerabilities, then the solution is to add Bond counters to Champion/DG pool
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Post by andretimpa on Jul 3, 2014 15:45:39 GMT
PC and mass CC are more than enough to stop cell/wolf bond (mono) decks and make PatCell's life harder. Changing the AI decks to deal with these looks like the best option to me.
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Post by cg on Jul 3, 2014 15:49:35 GMT
As far as changing AI decks goes, champions are random (using a similar formula to AI4 IIRC) so not exactly easy to alter in order to counter a specific card, and making demigods harder is a terrible idea, because they're already much harder in general than FGs and really difficult to do even remotely well against with just about anything besides PatCell.
If the general consensus is that bond is basically fine, though, I have no problem with that whatsoever.
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Post by andretimpa on Jul 4, 2014 10:58:47 GMT
Making the current demigods harder is not the only option. Making new ones that are able to counter different strategies than the current ones should already reduce the winrate of bond decks.
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Post by serprex on Jul 6, 2014 20:23:36 GMT
If the issue is mono bond decks, small nerfs to wolf/cell should be considered. Like cell's poison resistance making it that much more safe against mass CC (plague, pandemonium, chaos shield)
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Post by andretimpa on Jul 7, 2014 14:13:32 GMT
We can also move back to permanents acting after creatures, this will make EMs with bonds much harder.
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Post by serprex on Jul 14, 2014 14:16:10 GMT
I'm having random ideas this morning:
What if bond was a spell, not a permanent? It'd buff all current creatures to heal you for 1. This deals with an issue with Bond: countering it requires both PC & CC. It also makes it a little more awkward to use, because you have to choose a good critical mass to buff with it since creatures added after casting won't have the buff applied to them
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Post by serprex on Jul 15, 2014 13:58:30 GMT
Double posting because this is post-nerf (1 upkeep per 8 creatures)
The nerf makes splashing bonds quite infeasible. But it already wasn't viable at 5/4 cost (just use SoGs)
CG's argument for a quanta nerf despite issues being mono (ie where quanta stability isn't too hard) was that it'd be enough to slow combos even slightly
Issue: upkeep doesn't apply until 8+ creatures, which isn't going to happen until after the combo's been put down. In wolfbond, one's hand is likely empty and quanta costs are no longer the determining factor of speed
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per six creatures owned"
